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30 Comments (5 conversations)
Chris Roberts
What I find worrisome in the big picture is the number of prospects being “blocked” currently with those under contract: Andrae/Ginning/Attard/Bonk and McDonald (soon) at D, which current roster players would they take a spot from in the next year or two? Sanheim? York? Seeler? Drysdale? And Zamula is a language bridge for Michkov.
I realize depth is important, but I feel like they are walking a dangerous fine line where the perception of some of these prospects may start to sour. And their contracts are up, and we are back to losing waiver exemption. Are they being TOO conservative with slow-cooking these guys?
guadzilla
I am pretty sure that if these prospects are NHL ready, they will find ice time. I can’t remember the last time “having too many good prospects” ever became an issue for a team.
guadzilla
Saying Briere admitted the Flyers could have done more is a bit of a harsh take. Briere’s point wasn’t a tacit admission of fault but a statement that in hindsight, when a player is unhappy, you could ALWAYS have done more. Trying to get a Russian speaking player to provide support to a prospect in the middle of the season seems a little too much, dont you think? And would that have solved the issue of Kolosov wanting to play only in the NHL?
Briere also said that the Flyers went out of their way to support Kolosov, both with players and coaches – but he chose not to join them.
That said, when you have multiple players refusing to play for the Flyers, that does beg further scrutiny. Here is a raw list of potential causes that i can think of:
1). The organization is somehow misleading its prospects when drafting them about their path to the NHL
2). The organization is not doing sufficient due diligence on the players and drafting entitled players
3). The Flyer are no longer considered a player-friendly organization
4). Coincidence that this happened within 2 years with 2 player
5). There is a change in organizational philosophy between Fletcher and Briere in how prospects will be developed, and that has changed the messaging to them now
Charlie O'Connor
AuthorExactly, if something doesn’t work, you always could have done more. Given the fact that their transition-prospects-to-the-NHL strategy now has very publicly not worked twice in the past 16 months, they would be well served to look in the mirror and evaluate what more they could be doing.
Todd Shannon
What no one has commented on is that both these Gautier and Kolosov were drafted by, and probably had some promises made, by the Chuck Fletcher regime. It seems to me, and I think it’s a good thing, that with Briere/Jones they have much more of an earn it/longer development arc than CF. Character has been a big focus on their drafting and molding their NHL roster, and Kolosov in particular really does come across like he’s entitled to just step into the NHL.
Bob MCH
Gauthier probably could have been appeased if they put him on the NHL roster before his last year at Boston U. The team should have erred on giving the kid an early entry into the NHL, heck the team stunk at the time, so what’s the problem? Let him finish his development on a lousy NHL team if it makes him happy. It really seems like the Flyers organization is not in a rebuild, never truly was, and we are being faked out about their true intentions with the roster. They want to win, they want to win now, they want to make the playoffs now. They think they can add talent and make the playoffs. Just having Torts as their coach will persuade this approach. It has cost them Gauthier, and maybe Kosolov, If they passed on Fedotov, and made Kosolov the backup goalie this year, what would that have cost them? If he is that good a goalie prospect, bring him up early and let him develop in the NHL. If it is a true rebuild, this is what an organization should do. Especially when they have so few superstar prospects. Here are two potentials that they just said, nah, you are not making the NHL squad, so go fly a kite. And they both did. Flyers fans lose over team management pride, “Not gonna tell us what to do.” That may work in the corporte world Hilferty, but it does not with elite talent in sports. Brutal.
guadzilla
So your idea of a well-run team is let prospects dictate team policy?
In a situation where a prospect says “play me so i can burn a year of my entry level contract, or else…”, you are actually saying the prospect is right?
The mind boggles. Hockey is still the same team-first sport, but i think fans have become a little more entitled on behalf of the players.
Bob MCH
If he is a projected stud, yeah, sure, why not? Michkov just did it and they acquiesced. Why didn’t they do that with Gauthier who would be a competent third liner right now, at worst, and Kosolov, who could be a backup right now. This team is not in a position to lose two potential all star talents over an issue of when they start their NHL career, when both are good enough to make the team.
guadzilla
As fr as I know, Michkov didnt make any demands. I agree with you that you do cater to your star prospects a little differently – but IMO, there are limits to that. You dont let them dictate team policy (to mix sports – ala Russel Wilson and the Seahawks).
Personally, if a player goes “give me an ELC so i can burn a year off, else i wont play for you”, I will never root for that player and dont want him on my team. Yes, I want the Flyer to win – but i also want the team to have players i can root for. Someone like that? Nope.
Jeff Kirsch
Eloquently stated!
Erik Hilliard
Charlie doesn’t write too many articles that are a miss, but this is one. Briere, Jones and Hilferty were not in these roles when these kids were drafted. Who knows what Fletcher was doing as he missed much more than he hit.
I agree with the premise but these two situations don’t bare similarities and to expect a Russian to be added to an AHL roster at the end of a season is ridiculous.
Then some fans think the org should just hand out NHL ice time. Heck give a completely unproven prospective goalie a role no one knows he can even be adequate at because he won’t come over to compete for the position when he has 60 game of ice time staring him in the face to prove it. I guess we forget how our goalie situation turned out when we didn’t have a decent backup for Ersson last season.
Andrew Fernandes
I 100% agree. Yes the optics look bad but in both cases the maturity of the player is the prime problem in both cases.
With Cutter he was upset that that he didn’t get his ELC from Fletcher. Briere and the rest of the team went out of their way to try and mend that bridge but he wouldn’t even meet with them.
Now with this, you’ve got a player that just wants to be handed an NHL job.
Fedotov was a unique situation as he became available late and was due to be a free agent. So that forced the Flyers hands.
In hindsight maybe the organization should have stared down Cutter and not shown “weakness” and now they need to do it with Kosolov or else these issues will continue to happen.
guadzilla
I agree. I dont really see what the Flyers have done wrong here.
Gauthier’s issue – wanted to burn his ELC early and then had a hissy fit because of it. That’s the sort of stuff that would put me off the player regardless of which team he plays for.
Kolosov – team went out of their way to make him feel at home. The only thing they didnt do was trade for a Russian speaking AHL player to cater to a *third round pick* who was only here for a short time. Which team does that for a mid-round prospect?
Yes, the optics of 2 players not wanting to play for the Flyers is not good – but saying “the Flyers are somehow at fault” based purely on this seems a little lazy, to be honest (and I say this as being a huge fan of Charlie’s work. His Flyers reports and deep dives are the reason i got an Allphly account)
Charlie O'Connor
AuthorIf you want to argue it’s a problem with the inherent morals and personalities of the players, then the Flyers need to do a better job of identifying those types of character flaws before they burn valuable draft picks on them.
This is a results-based business. And in the last calendar year, two of their top-10 prospects in their organization have decided they’d rather not do what the organization wants them to do. Those are the facts.
Bob MCH
Exactly Charlie. Spot on correct, and this is one of the best articles you have ever written, and I have been following you for years. This roster stinks, is not anywhere near a cup contender, is a middling roster without enough superstars and all star elite talent to become a cup contender any time soon. They got MM, but need a whole lot more. So, to give up perhaps the only two all-star prospects they had over mismanagement of some degree, is cause for great concern as a fan. Something needs to change. Their philosophy with these prospects is more corporate, perhaps Hilferty’s influence, than sports reality. Hilferty needs to learn how hard it is to acquire top shelf talent in the sports world. Lindros was put on the roster right away. Gauthier should have been too. MM was. It is what you do when you get a stud prospect. Brutal mismanagement from this Flyers management team.
Erik Hilliard
Comparing any of these guys to Lindros is laughable. Stop it.
guadzilla
That’s a fair point – but with respect, Charlie, that’s an easy question to highlight. From you, we expect answers or atleast some theories (backed up by insider info) as to whether there is a systemic issue at play here.
(That’s what happens when you get used to your top notch standard of writing. We expect MOAR!! :)).
Charlie O'Connor
AuthorIt’s reasonable to argue that both Gauthier and Kolosov were drafted by the Fletcher regime and if there was a problem with pre-draft character red flags being missed or ignored, it’s been resolved now.
But that’s more of a hope than a certainty. We don’t know if they’re going to run into issues like this in the future with Briere picks. The Michkov pick bodes well, but most of the Briere draft picks are a ways away from the NHL. So we’ll see.
Erik Hilliard
Charlie, I think this would be a great topic to talk with Jones if you get that segment again. I think everyone agrees the Flyers can’t have prospects not play. When the new guys came in, did they see concerns organizationally that they feel needed to be repaired in how they are perceived around the league? I’m not sure why you’re presuming the new regime isn’t digging into these personality concerns..
And Michkov seems to be at a different level of prospect. Cutter wanted to play in college, Matvei wants to play in the NHL. The goalie situation is strange as Kolosov could be one tweak to a hip from being with a big club. Guys that don’t want to compete and earn their spots in the face of disappointment is a huge red flag for me.
Jake Kurz
Yeah, this might be the first ever Charlie article where I couldn’t agree less with the content. Gauthier and Kolosov both clearly think they’re entitled to spots, and threw tantrums when they didn’t get their way. How this is on the Flyers is beyond me.
Charlie O'Connor
AuthorSo did Michkov and Fedotov, it appears. The only reason they’re not viewed as “entitled” is because the Flyers acquiesced to their demands and put them right in the NHL.
Also, to be clear — the Gauthier situation is not as simple as “the Flyers wouldn’t guarantee him a spot.” I believe there was a miscommunication somewhere, but if the Flyers were told by Gauthier that he would only sign if he was placed in the NHL right away and allowed to burn an ELC year, they would have done that. Based on everyone I’ve spoken with, that’s not the way it was presented to the Flyers.
They truly do not know why Gauthier spurned them. Just want to clarify that, because it seems like a misconception has been created that Gauthier demanding a spot was THE REASON why he turned on the org. There is no concrete evidence that was the case, it’s just been repeated a bunch until a lot of people believe it.
guadzilla
That’s interesting. It really IS crazy what happened with Gauthier – do you have any rumblings or hints at all?
And good point about Michkov and Fedotov vs Kolosov. I guess Kolosov has the misfortune of bad timing (both in terms of the Flyers roster and in terms of his own age/experience level when it comes to making demands). That said, i hope the Flyers dont burn bridges with him and do find a way to make it work down the road.
Peter Dymond
Hi Charlie,
I heard you make this same argument about “entitlement” on the show and I’m not sure your thinking through it is correct.
I think “entitlement” is defined as something like “expecting a level of treatment or benefits that you haven’t yet earned.”
I think it’s very clear that factors like khl success, age, numerous prospect rankings make it clear that Fedotov, and Matvei have “earned” a respect and subsequently treatment that Kolosov hasn’t. If Kolosov was a top three ranked goalie prospect then he too would have earned it. But he hasn’t demonstrated himself to be that “good/special” so if he insists on being treated like them that would be if not entitlement then at least problematic arrogance lack of self -awareness.
Fedotov and Matvei aren’t not entitled because the Flyers gave in. It’s because they’ve demonstrated that they are realistically good enough to be worth special treatment. That I think what meritocracy is. If you can provide evidence that your special then we will treat you like your special.
Stephen Schmidt
This is well stated. I’m with others that view this article as a bit underwhelming in terms of the content.
Charlie, Briere and Jones have been changing hockey ops / scouts since Fletcher, so isn’t that saying something? You even made it clear, no one has any clue what Cutter was thinking and that the Flyers would’ve offered him a deal even if it burned an ELC year. Honestly, who cares about Kolosov at this point – Zavragrin seems far more compelling anyway. Peter’s take on how Michkov and Fedotov are different is spot on as well.
Bob MCH
It depends upon your view of the strategic plan, and Charlie is spot on correct in his article. My point is, the Flyers stunk, but approached the rebuild as if they want to make the playoffs, instead of find potential stud talent, which they had none, and groom them if you are lucky enough to obtain them. Lehigh Valley is not the place to groom stud talent. Nor is a useless last year of college. Lost a few games if you have to, is this a rebuild or not? Flyers actions are saying, not it is not a rebuild. Which is a lie to the fans. If it was a true rebuild, they would have brough Gauthier on board before his last year of college, stick him on the third line, and be happy as he becomes a superstar at the NHL level. If Kosolov is not a superstar prospect, then fine, don’t put him on the NHL roster. If he is a superstar prospect in a goalie starved organization, sure, if your team stinks, and it is a true rebuild, put him on the roster as a backup. In any case, Flyers completely blew it sticking him in Allentown at the end of a season without proper life support. For me, this is one of Charlies best articles ever.
Erik Hilliard
They traded their top d-man in a playoff race while ignoring the goalie position and continue to add bad cap dollars so they can’t make meaningful signings. Have 6 picks in the top 2 rounds in 2025 but they aren’t rebuilding. Right……
Jeff Kirsch
Great points
Mark
I wonder if the way they brought in Fedotov and basically guaranteed him an NHL spot set a precedent that Kolosov felt he deserved as well.
It kind of feels like the Flyers are at a crossroads, and I’m not really sure what to think of the organization. I want to give Briere/Jones every opportunity to fix this team and let their vision play out. But there are now a few examples of mixed messages going on.
— The Flyers front office has spoken several times about improving the culture and making this a place players want to play. Yet two prospects have now turned away and the comments from management seem to indicate a more iron-fisted “our way or the highway” type stance.
–Again, lots of talk from the front office about being open and transparent with fans, but then when there are hiccups, like Gauthier, Kolosov, Johansen, the public statements are vague, guarded and seemingly contradictory over time.
–They’ve stated several times that they know they really need to bring in high-end talent. That’s what we all agree the team is missing. Yet we just went through a whole offseason of…not much at all. Maybe the stockpiling of 2025 draft picks is part of the plan, but it just felt like a lack of urgency to make improvements.
I do want to believe there is a plan and changes will happen to make it better. I just don’t know what to think yet.
guadzilla
I don’t have as pessimistic a take as you, Mark.
1). Charlie has a valid point that 2 prospects not wanting to play bears looking into. Maybe there is a systemic problem or maybe it is just unlucky timing. As he corrected us all, no one know what went wrong with Gauthier that he wouldn’t even speak to the Flyers organization. And Kolosov has a clear “NHL > KHL > AHL” mindset. These two dont necessarily mean that the Flyers arent a place where players want to come. Historically, that’s always been a strength of the organization and i dont think they have fallen that far yet.
2). Being transparent is one thing – but you also don’t want to wash your dirty laundry in public. With Kolosov, they’ve actually been more transparent than i would have expected. Based on Charlie’s comments about Gauthier, they’ve been transparent here too (I had kinda assumed that Gauthier didnt want to play because of the ELC issue, but if he truly didnt inform the Flyers, they dont know – and they told us they dont know). With Johansen, i am happy they are not getting into it publicly – you dont ever want to take these disputes public.
3). Now we get to the meat of the matter. I think their approach is sensible – they still have a lot of salary caps on the books, and they have too many question marks. So why make blockbuster trades yet? They have a lot of draft ammo stockpiled and the prospect of cap space coming free in the next two seasons – they admit that they need high-level talent (which alone is refreshingly new!) and next session is when they have the means to actually act on it.
Rebuilds require patience – their choice of rebuilds means we dont have a top-5 pick every year to excite us. But i, for one, can actually see the path they are taking. I dont know if they will be successful or not, so am withholding judgement for now.
If they end up using all the picks they have next 2 years to draft players in the lower half of the rounds, i will be annoyed, though.
Mark
I appreciate your comments, and it’s very possible that I’m just being impatient in wanting to see some moves. I don’t even know if I’m pessimistic so much as struggling to see the larger vision as a whole. Maybe it will become more clear once we see this year’s trade deadline and what they do with all the 2025 picks.